Controversial Fantasia Fest winner tours America
Content Warning: The film Me and My Victim involves the subject of sexual abuse in relationships, which is discussed in this interview. Please be advised.
One of the most provocative, hot-button films in years is the no-budget, nonfiction brainchild of an outsider duo. Billy Pedlow and Maurane’s romantic relationship was disastrous, to say the least. Rather than restraining orders or social media blocking, the one-time couple devised an unconventional concept. Me and My Victim is what Pedlow refers to as a “podcast film,” in which he and Maurane dissect their failed courtship with graphic, sometimes horrific frankness. Difficult though the film is, it is a brave feat of messy, humane art that has wowed some (winning Best Film at Fantasia Fest) while appalling others.
Enjoying foamy beers on a perfectly warm May afternoon, Pedlow and I sat down at Brooklyn’s Niteglow Brewery, with Maurane joining virtually from Montreal, to discuss the thematically shocking and formally audacious movie that their fellow Dimes Square filmmaker Aimee Armstrong (Envy/Desire) says “genuinely has invented a new form of cinema.”
This interview has been edited and condensed for time and clarity.
Emma James: So, first of all, I think this is an amazing, unusual film. The way you approached it is so personal and raw that it caught me off guard. Congratulations to you both on having made something that has gotten such a reaction. What led you to decide to share your story together as a film?
Maurane: For so many reasons. We both knew we had an interesting story. We knew we were able to trust each other and be honest. Billy had this idea and we just decided to do it. He proposed it to me one night, then the day after, we were already –
Billy Pedlow: We were already working on the film the next day. I had the idea in the shower, because that’s where I have all of my ideas. “This would be so evil. This would be so good.” I was just in a crazy, very creative phase, and we were at a reading together. We were both pretty drunk, smoking cigarettes out back, and I was like “what if we made a movie?” You asked, “what would it be about?” I was like, “what if it was about this,” and you were down.
EJ: Josephine Decker made Flames, a docudrama about a relationship she had that fell apart, and then of course there’s Betsey Brown’s short Shegetsey Betsey, which is very diaristic and reflective about a relationship ending, as well as the work of Jack Dunphy. I was wondering, what were the cinematic influences for Me and My Victim?
BP: We were definitely inspired by Caveh Zahedi’s work, like The Show About the Show and I Am a Sex Addict. [But for] the actual making of it, I feel like we had a very unique, singular vision that wasn’t based on anything else.
We knew we wanted it to be centered on the dialogue, and for that to be the vital heart of the movie. What makes it different from most films is the way it’s sort of like a podcast. I’ve always liked hanging out with just one other person and shooting the shit more than with a group of people, because you can get deeper into topics. With so many films, you’re jumping from character to character and the plot overpowers the dialogue. For sure, I’m inspired by films like My Dinner with Andre. A lot of people compare this movie to the Before Sunset series, but I don’t really like those films. There’s also the Woody Allen comparison, but I don’t really like his films either, honestly.
M: (indignant) You don’t like fucking Woody?!
BP: I don’t like the Woody Allen movies! Everybody’s really mad at me for it. It has nothing to do with his accusations, I just don’t like his films.
M: (laughing) That’s like the worst answer!
BP: Yeah, yeah, I know everybody loves Woody. And I love people who love Woody! I think a lot of people who love Woody Allen films also love our movie, so I’m okay with it. But I think, really, it wasn’t inspired by anything. It was inspired by itself. When you’re making an art project, you get into a portal and you start problem-solving on top of the thing you started off with.
M: Also, me and Billy don’t come from a movie background, so that’s why our movie doesn’t really look like other movies. We treat it like visual art. We didn’t really talk about the movie while doing it that much. We were not like, “oh, I want it to look like that movie.” Except Caveh, or the concept of what Caveh does –
BP: Also, what was it, the Harmony Korine movie with Travis Scott in it? I was sort of inspired by the visuals from that at one point.
EJ: AGGRO DR1FT? I can see that.
BP: Yeah, AGGRO DR1FT was in development at the time. I saw a trailer, and I was kinda tipped off to some ideas, like the red.
EJ: I was going to ask about the heavy use of the color red as a motif throughout the film. Does that signify anything?
M: When you see red, you think about love, violence, and romance. We knew we wanted a strong symbol for the movie.
BP: One of the first ideas I had aesthetically for the movie was that my character would always be wearing a red shirt. We did a couple things to kinda differentiate myself from “Billy,” to make him more of a character versus just being me. One was not wearing glasses and the other was always wearing a red shirt. I was inspired by Star Trek red shirts. “The red shirt always dies” is the trope. It’s the throwaway character– the person who is sacrificed, essentially. Also, there’s the whole monologue about the roses, so it all just tied together and gave the film a distinct visual.
EJ: It really does give it an interesting aesthetic. Maurane edited the film in an experimental, chaotic way that is disorienting but very beautiful. The editing is almost a character itself. Did you always intend such an avant-garde approach to post-production?
M: I do video art. This is my first movie, so it’s kind of high aesthetic. It’s just a style I like, and it really fits with the movie, which is about perspective on a situation that happened, and the fact that it’s chaotic and abstract represents that we don’t really know the reality. It has some scenes that aren’t like you’re used to seeing in other movies.
BP: What scenes were you thinking about, for example, Maurane?
M: The sexual assault scene. You don’t really see what happened. It’s more like symbols – video from the Internet Archive, stuff like that, and that way of doing it fits with the concept about how we both have different perspectives. I didn’t want the visuals to remove that from the movie.
BP: We tried to make it easier for ourselves because we knew we had the limitations of no budget and only two people working together when we were living in different countries. We had limited time to film and we had to maximize every day that we were working together. Truthfully, we did not cover everything in the filming. We had to fill in stopgaps, so it’s like a practical thing too. In terms of the way that you’re saying with the red, by picking certain symbols and focusing in on them, we were able to show the full spectrum of them. I think bananas can be silly, like when she steals the bananas at one point in the movie, and that’s something that makes me fall for her, but the bananas are also being eaten during some of the most intense scenes of the film and indicative of an inescapable flavor. We also show the full spectrum of red from romantic to violent; just picking these symbols and developing their entire horseshoe– narrowing in and representing them visually.
EJ: During this intense moment when you’re discussing whether sexual assault occurred in your relationship, the banana is on screen by itself for a lengthy period of time. That’s definitely something I was going to mention.
BP: Bananas have such an aggressive flavor.
EJ: Yeah. And of course, there’s the phallic symbolism too. The way you’ve managed to get around your limitations disguises the fact that it’s a no-budget film. The choices that you probably had to make out of necessity feel like very deliberate artistic decisions.
BP: Yeah, because the movie wouldn’t exist otherwise. But also, they absolutely were deliberate artistic decisions. We chose every shot very deliberately. We are playing to our strengths, essentially. When you’re a scrappy underdog, like I think this film is, you have to elaborate that to show people we’re working with less and doing more.
EJ: You went in the opposite direction of the typical talking-head documentaries with no style. Here, the style and the substance work together very well to elevate each other. It gives the film both visual and thematic depth in a way that, like you were saying, really does feel unique. It’s outsider art in a way, because you guys hadn’t made films before.
BP: It’s 100 percent outsider art. We don’t have any backing. We just recently got some money for this tour, so for the first time, we’re getting a little help, but most of the time, we’re doing everything ourselves.
In terms of the visual elements, one of the things that people catch subconsciously but don’t totally know is that we recorded all of the audio first and then we recorded video later, so anytime we’re in the quote-unquote “studio” talking to each other, we’re literally just mouthing the words. So, sometimes, it’s a little off, but we’re lip syncing. We were inspired by watching old talkie films where they couldn’t record sound, because we knew we had the sound first, and we knew the sound was the primary element of the movie. The disconnect between the sound and the visuals is also a metaphorical elaboration on the disconnect of language that is throughout the film. Even when we’re talking, our words aren’t necessarily syncing up with our actual words.
EJ: Wow, that’s so clever and adds a whole other level that I hadn’t noticed. So, since Cinapse is an Austin publication, I have to ask: for the Austin screening, your Q&A is being moderated by Joe Rogan, basically the most famous podcaster in the world. Is he a fan of the film?
BP: Yeah, he is, actually. We’re very glad that he took the time to watch it. We’ve actually had a lot of talented artists, podcasters, or whatever, who have seen the film and are big fans. But the funny thing about this movie is, even when people really, really, really like it, they don’t necessarily want to step in front of the train and say “I like this film.” There is a group of people who advocate very harshly against the film. Not everybody wants to put their nuts on the line for it, so we’re trying to tread carefully. What do you want to say about it, Maurane?
M: I don’t think I can say more than that.
EJ: How conscious and afraid of pushback in your professional and private lives were either of you in deciding to be so honest in making this film?
M: I was scared for Billy, because that’s the reality. He receives death threats sometimes. [But] when [Billy] and I were doing that project, it didn’t stop us at any point from making it.
BP: We weren’t even sure it would be seen or be successful, so that was a secondary concern. Definitely there were some times that I was in the shower being like “is this movie gonna ruin my fucking life? Will I ever be able to get another job again?” Still, to this day, if I’m applying for another job, it’s like, “do I put this on my resume or not?” I literally don’t know. (to Maurane) You can put it on your resume but I can’t. That shit’s so fucked-up and weird.
EJ: You won a very prestigious award for this film, but you’ve gotta qualify it with an asterisk or something.
BP: It’s a very strange accomplishment. I’ve always been fascinated with “cancel literature,” which is what I call the many essays of cancellation that came out in the 2010s and early 2020s. The Aziz Ansari thing was a fascinating piece of literature that a lot of people read over and over again, because they weren’t really sure how they felt about it, and there’s a lot of analysis that goes into it. I was always very fascinated with the ways those narratives become incredibly divergent. Some people read them and they’re like, “oh, this guy definitely didn’t do it, and I’m picking up on the narcissism of the accuser,” or “this guy did it and deserves to die.” So, as someone who always wanted to make an explosive piece of art –
EJ: (interrupting) Mission accomplished.
BP: – an evil piece of art, it only made sense to do something like that, which would create a similarly divergent response, but now that we’re on the precipice of getting more attention on the film and that it might actually be more successful – and I think it will – I’m definitely reckoning with the effect it’s had on my life. People look at me differently when I enter a room. To even have that feeling when you meet someone is very strange. I don’t necessarily love carrying that burden around, but ultimately, I do like being provocative, and I do like making people uncomfortable, so I guess I’ve kind of embraced it. I don’t really have a choice at this point.
EJ: I definitely think the film contributes insightfully to the ongoing conversation in society about consent and boundaries in sex and relationships. It has something to say that’s very honest and can hopefully be a positive influence in some ways, maybe as a cautionary tale of how not to behave.
BP: We’ve had people come up to us after the film and be like, “I watched this and forgave my abuser. I feel differently about it now.” They feel like their heart and their trauma have been soothed. But for sure, there are other people who watch it and have PTSD.
M: Also, a big thing in the movie is that we drank a lot of alcohol, and I’ve had the experience of people realizing the impact of consuming alcohol or drugs in sexual situations.
EJ: As a filmmaker and a woman, I don’t think Me and My Victim is, as Billy said, “an evil piece of art.” It’s provocative, maybe incendiary, but it certainly has a heart that comes through.
M: I agree. I agree. I don’t think it’s evil at all.
BP: (laughing) I like to think it’s evil and has a big heart.
M: It’s not really evil.
BP: I don’t know. Some people say it’s evil. I think it’s evil.
M: (laughing) You’re evil.
BP: I’m evil. So, Maurane, I wanted to ask you, because Emma implied that we might ask each other questions – what’s it like to work with Billy Pedlow?
M: (laughing) That’s so hard. Fuck. It’s a journey. It’s a lot of fun, but you have to push him a bit. That movie is one of the best experiences of my life, and often when I go out in Montreal, people that have seen the movie or just read a review ask me if I’m still friends with Billy, hoping that I’m not, so it’s a hard thing to live with, because I would not have done that movie if I was not close to Billy. Working with you, it’s hard but it’s fun. Also, this movie is about our relationship and it’s so emotional that, when I was doing the editing, I had a different emotion towards you, and I’m sure you have that kind of emotion towards me, so we have to live down a lot. Also, we had never done movies, so we were learning and trying to film stuff, and it didn’t always look good. Another reason why it’s hard to work with you is that, when we do Q&As – I mean, you just said it, you like to be provocative, so it brings strong reactions.
BP: Working with a boorish American as a Canadian during the Trump era?
M: (laughing) During the U.S. tour, I’m gonna be so triggered.
BP: We have a hot and cold approach. It works out really well for us. For people who don’t like me, they can approach Maurane. For people who – well, no one doesn’t like Maurane. People approach me because I’m actually just a really nice guy when you get to know me, but I scare some people, I guess.
EJ: So, it’s sort of like “good cop, bad cop.” I love the way poems that you’ve both written are incorporated into the film, and the contrast between Billy’s edgy poem “I Want to Jerk Off All the Homeless Men,” which is in his book, Terrorizing the Virgin, and Maurane’s very poignant anus poem. Both are very vulgar and sexual, but night and day in terms of emotion and approach. That says a lot about the difference between the two of you. It’s another fun framing detail.
BP: One of the things that people miss a lot in the film, even though we tried to highlight it, is that it is the second poem Maurane ever wrote. The same way that I was inspired to make a film by working with her, who does video art, she was inspired to become a poet by working with me. I like to highlight that. (to Maurane) Would you write that vulgarly if your exposure to poetry wasn’t me first?
M: I think I have that in me.
BP: Oh, absolutely.
M: For sure, you made me see poetry in a way that I didn’t see before, because I didn’t know a lot, and it seemed boring to me.
BP: The night that we decided to do the movie, I read that poem about two rivals vomiting into each other’s mouths over and over again.
M: That’s a good one.
BP: I forgot that that’s what it is in the movie, so that’s a special detail. That’s what the poem is about. It’s about two rivals in a deep embrace where they’re just vomiting into each other’s mouths back and forth.
EJ: That reminds me of the “pooping back and forth” scene in Miranda July’s Me and You and Everyone We Know.
BP: There’s also a section in Freedom by Jonathan Franzen where the son is talking to his girlfriend about licking each other’s poop – that shit was so good. That’s one of my favorite sections of a book ever. Freedom is also a theme in Me and My Victim, because we have the Budweiser can that says “freedom” towards the end, and we were trying to imply something there about freedom. That was before I had read Freedom, but they’re similar investigations of the benefits and negatives of emotional and physical freedom.
EJ: I like that, so I’ll find a way to cut around it without all the poop and everything –
BP: I like the poop part.
EJ: Okay, I’ll leave the poop. So, once the tour is over and the film is streaming, what’s next for both of you? Is there another Billy and Maurane project, or are you working on things individually?
M: We were supposed to, but I decided to start my own movie. It’s kind of linked with Me and My Victim, but it’s going to be super different. It’s about the reception of the film and my life after it. I’m really excited to be starting that soon. My goal with Billy is to do a movie when we’re like 40. I want him to have a family and be super happy, and just show up in his life and kidnap him.
BP: We’re both doing diverging sequels, essentially. I’m like the inheritor of the true lineage, because Maurane’s not doing a podcast film. Maurane’s doing a more formal film, right? I don’t want to speak for her.
M: I wouldn’t say “formal,” but it’s not a podcast film.
BP: It’s not a podcast movie, whereas I’m gonna do a second movie in the same style. It’s about some friends of mine in an experimental project to blackmail incels into fixing their lives. It’s called Beautiful Blackmail.
M: It’s gonna be good.
BP: And then, I’m also working on a 120-hour film called Don’t Look at Me, but that’s gonna be more artsy-fartsy, not really a formal film. [Beautiful Blackmail] is in development hell, but Maurane’s movie is in development hell too, so we’re on the same page. We should talk about the tour.
M: Yes, but first, you should show your elbow.
BP: (laughing) My elbow?
EJ: What’s the significance of the elbow?
BP: (confused, flashing his elbow) This is my elbow. Here you go.
EJ: Me and My Elbow.
M: (laughing) Cute.
BP: Do you like it? Wait, Maurane, can I see your elbow?
(Maurane shows her elbow)
BP: Put it away! Put that away. That’s disgusting.
(everyone laughs)
BP: Put that fucking shit away. This is the worst elbow I’ve ever seen. Bad elbow!
M: (laughing) It’s, like, small.
BP: Okay, so before you distracted me with your slutty request to see my elbow – we’re doing a U.S. tour. We sold some equity in the film for the money. This might be the only time we’re gonna show it everywhere in theaters until it comes out on streaming platforms. Go now or forever hold your peace. We’re using the money to show the movie all over America in hopes of attracting distribution companies. We’ve had a lot of universities purchase the film to show classes, because it’s such a good example of DIY, no-budget filmmaking. Eugene [Kotlyarenko] has been helpful. I love Eugene.
M: And Cass[idy Grady]!
BP: And Cass has helped with the promotion. We’re just going around showing it everywhere we can. I literally Shark Tank pitched a guy I work with about how I was trying to sell equity in the movie for a tour, and he was like “I wanna do it.” This movie has continually been a process of doing everything ourselves. I just wanna hammer home that nobody does it like us. This is the only outsider film.
Me and My Victim is currently touring the United States with directors Billy Pedlow and Maurane. Tour dates are below:
May 11 – Small Works Gallery, Philadelphia, PA
May 13 – Aurora Chapel, Houston, TX
May 15 – We Luv Video, Austin, TX
May 22 – The Virgil, Los Angeles, CA
May 25 – Roxie Theater, San Francisco, CA
May 28 – KGB Bar, New York City, NY
